Battery longevity, general prices and recharging costs

General BVS related area
Deddly
Posts: 31
Joined: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:31 pm
Location: Södermanland, Sweden

Postby Deddly » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:34 pm

qdos wrote:Not sure what kind of car you are looking for exactly but how about a Honda Insight or a Prius or maybe the Renault Kangoo as an Import?


I love the Insight - a beautifully designed efficient car which I'd be seriously interested in... if it had 4 seats.

The Kangoo and the Berlingo also only have two seats - as far as I know?

The Prius is a nice idea but the economy figures don't impress me at all, I could get better economy from a small car like a Citroen C3...and the distance you can travel on battery alone is a bit of a joke. A hybrid with a descent range on battery would maybe fit what I'm looking for.

Hmm home-made biodiesel also sounds interesting...I'll have to find out a bit more about that, mjoinson.

OK, Basically what I want is the Audi Metroproject Quattro - 60 miles on one charge with a lively ICE to use for longer journeys. The sad thing is I heard they aren't planning on implementing the hybrid system in the final car. I would also expect the price to be pretty darn high, being an Audi :roll: .

What do you lot think about the Honda Civic IMA? I only just heard of it.

The price of hybrids got me on the idea of getting a pure EV, I thought that it would be cheaper to buy and run because it won't need an ICE so it's so much simpler, but what with the price of replacement batteries I'm not so sure anymore. Is there, or will there be, a pure EV that will travel around 125 miles between charges (without wrecking the batteries), can go 60mph and can cope with the Southern Swedish winter, where we can expect down to -20C or lower occasionally? Oh, and here's the annoying bit that cuts out almost all my options: I need at least 4 seats!
Suggestions welcome!

--
Ed

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retepsnikrep
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Postby retepsnikrep » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:00 am

marktime wrote:The Honda Insight goes back even further but they were never sold here so are hard to come by.


Not quite right, they were sold here between 1999-2006 approx but hardly advertised or promoted at all. :(

They are hard to come by, there are only about 250 registered in UK. I checked with DVLA. 8)
My wife and I have 0.8% of the UK stock :lol:

They were about 7 years ahead of their time IMO, and if introduced now with a few tweaks inc li-po batteries, a 100mpg hybrid (perhaps even plugin) would sell pretty well with petrol at 1.10p a Litre and rising. :shock:
Last edited by retepsnikrep on Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
Regards Peter

Two MK1 Honda Insight's. One running 20ah A123 Lithium pack. One 8ah BetterBattery Nimh pack.
One HCH1 Civic Hybrid running 60ah A123 Lithium pack.

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retepsnikrep
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Postby retepsnikrep » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:06 am

Deddly wrote: What do you lot think about the Honda Civic IMA? I only just heard of it.


I've seen a few but not on the road! I understand they can get upto about 60mpg if driven carefully. Nimh battery technology though, which although pretty reliable is a bit old now. Probably similar to Prius in real world use mpg etc. They don't have a pure electric mode ASFAIK, the IMA is similar to the 'Insight' system. It's a fairly heavy steel bodied car and not that aerodynamic so mpg won't be great.
Regards Peter

Two MK1 Honda Insight's. One running 20ah A123 Lithium pack. One 8ah BetterBattery Nimh pack.
One HCH1 Civic Hybrid running 60ah A123 Lithium pack.

marktime
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu May 10, 2007 11:36 am
Location: Littlehampton, West Sussex

Postby marktime » Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:09 pm

Sorry, I am not fully up to speed on the Insight, I should have done more home work. However I have had a test drive of the Honda Civic Hybrid (HCH or IMA whichever you prefer) I wrote about it in the 'Hybrids corner' under the thread 'Hybrids, the debate starts here' The stuff about the civic is on the first page so you don't have to dig too deep to find it.

On paper there is not a lot to choose between the Prius and the HCH, they are both £15 VED, and are almost the same size (externally).
The Prius is slightly better in MPG / CO2 terms but Civic costs less so they might come out even in a 'total cost of ownership' contest.

They work in very different ways (see the hybrid thread). and I believe that the Civic works in a similar way to the Insight whereas the Prius comes from the Planet Toyota and is out of this world.


In the Hybrid thread I have also covered the fact that I run my Prius as a company car and as such it is 'FREE'* to me. I know that this is not an option for everyone and if I were to run my own car I might choose differently.


* Free company car explained.

The tax man sees a company car as a benefit in kind (BIK)and it is taxed based on it's value and emissions.
Value or P11d is the cost of the car + any extras it's a bit like OTR price .
P11d for a T4 Prius is £18500 Civic Hybrid is circa £16500.

Both the Prius and Civic are in an emissions band that is currently taxed at 12% of P11d, from this April this will fall to 10% of P11d.

So from this April the BIK for a Prius would be £1850 and £1650 for a Civic.

The BIK is then taxed at your personal rate of income tax.
For a 40% tax payer the actual tax bill for a Prius would be £740 per year and for a Civic £660.

OK that's a cost, how is it free?

My employer reimburses my business mileage at the government recommended rate of 13 pence per mile. Some may pay more.

My annual average MPG is 57mpg, this equates to 8 pence per mile (at 102.9 pence per litre), I therefore earn 5 pence for every business mile I drive and I do about 15000 business miles a year. 5p X 15000 miles / 100 = £750.

Ok that is only £10 more than the tax bill but I only have to pay for my private mileage so that is the nearest thing to free motoring I know of.


MarkTime
Soft as Graphite, Hard as Diamond, Black as Coal & clear as CO2, It's a Carbon thing!

Grumpy-b
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Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2007 12:06 pm

Postby Grumpy-b » Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:58 pm

Its interesting seeing the comments on the Hybrids. At work we have both Honda and Toyota. many of us consider the Honda to ba a dangerous vehicle. Unlike the Toyota, the Honda is basically a petrol car and an under powered one at that, it relies on the motor system to supplement its serious lack of power. Try and over take at 65 to 70 and you will think you are going to die. It wont perform unless you thrash it mercilessly. Result poor fuel consumption, and a decent diesel will give better mpg and a safer drive. It also has to have the clutch depressed before you can re-start it. Try remembering that when its just stalled on a roundabout.
The Toyota is a different animal, well balanced, plenty of power in all circumstances and good MPG. I cant praise it highly enough, as I cant moan about the Honda enough.

Electric only cars will always have a dedicated following, I long to get my Blingo sorted, but in reality our way of life is not constrained by 40 to 60 mile journeys, and while its cheaper to drive than take the train, I cant see how that can change for longer journeys.
Our other cars are all diesel, mine older, my wifes a newish lease car.
For me older cars also have a lower carbon foot print as the huge original energy use is spread over a longer time so overall life carbon use / production has to be lower per mile.

The debate goes on

Jeremy

ChrisBarron
Posts: 244
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:26 pm

Postby ChrisBarron » Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:23 pm

Deddly wrote:
qdos wrote:Not sure what kind of car you are looking for exactly but how about a Honda Insight or a Prius or maybe the Renault Kangoo as an Import?




The price of hybrids got me on the idea of getting a pure EV, I thought that it would be cheaper to buy and run because it won't need an ICE so it's so much simpler, but what with the price of replacement batteries I'm not so sure anymore. Is there, or will there be, a pure EV that will travel around 125 miles between charges (without wrecking the batteries), can go 60mph and can cope with the Southern Swedish winter, where we can expect down to -20C or lower occasionally? Oh, and here's the annoying bit that cuts out almost all my options: I need at least 4 seats!
Suggestions welcome!

--
Ed






http://tinyurl.com/ys3c7x

Perhaps this is something worth considering, and I don't think you have to move to California to buy one, the AC Propulsion system is available as a package which can be fitted to a lot of cars. It's got a great inverter which you can run it in both directions, so if there's a power cut at home your car can provide your home with power. There are stories of a Canadian having used that feature to help him and his neighbours survive an icestorm whcih caused days of electricalo disruptions


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