Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

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badnewswade
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby badnewswade » Mon Mar 08, 2010 1:50 am

In other words: The government are once again subsidising the pseudo-green poses of the very rich, while leaving everyone else who want an electric vehicle out to dry. How very New Labour - just like their new handouts to wealthy solar panel owners, which have been ably trashed by the Monbiot here: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... -in-tariff

Honestly, if they really wanted to subsidise green vehicles they'd pay people to buy G-Wizzes, electric mopeds and electric bikes, not overpriced vapourware and millionaires' playthings. The injustice of this is so rank- they rant and rave endlessly about how they're going to clamp down on the already paltry handouts to the poor and sick while at the same time furnishing the upper middle class with these enormous welfare handouts. Only for some reason they don't call it "welfare" when they give money to the rich, they call it a "subsidy". GRRR!

:evil: :evil: :evil:
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MB
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby MB » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:50 pm

I agree with what you say about a lot of the Government plans. But I think they're doing this with the best intentions... and just getting it wrong.

In the case of the electric car subsidies, they've done exactly the same all over again. They've scored some cheap political points by announcing the scheme 18 months before it goes live, which makes them look good and kills off the UK electric vehicle industry in the meantime. I know people who have lost their jobs and their businesses as a direct result of the governments announcements - in effect, they killed off demand for electric vehicles and destroyed people's livelihoods in the process.

Nice work, guys.

However, putting that aside for the time being, the subsidies will allow electric car prices to come down to more affordable levels. Over the next few years expect the prices to keep falling - in fact, if my calculations are correct, electric cars will be given away free by 2016. And if you want to know why, you'll have to wait another couple of weeks before my next press announcement...
My new book is out: The 2011 Electric Car Guide is available from Amazon and all good bookshops.

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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby badnewswade » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:14 pm

They're just so out of touch. Didn't any of them bother to find out the first thing about electric vehicles? No. They just wanted quick headlines.

The whole thing really does look like a plan to hand over a bunch of cash to people who are already loaded, as seems to be the way with government intervention these days. Even John Major's government was more fair with subsidies than that - we need more subs for low-income households, not handouts to middle class people and their expensive cars. People who buy expensive cars already have enough money, for crying out loud - that's why they buy expensive cars!

A sub for "people's" electric vehicles, like the scooters and small cars would make sense, but decent public transport would trump that too, to be honest. I really don't think it's right for the government to be subsidising people's hobbies in this way when there is still so much poverty in the country.
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby andylaurence » Wed Mar 10, 2010 8:59 am

They're trying to stimulate EVs with specifications that the average person wouldn't laugh at. Most people will laugh if you say your car can only travel 30 miles or has a top speed of 40mph. I'm an EV advocate but I wouldn't buy a car with those stats. As for helping out those with less money, people with little cash don't buy new cars. They do, however, buy used cars and there will be more used EVs in the classifieds if more "loaded" people buy them.
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby badnewswade » Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:20 pm

Yes, with me it's more of a philosophical difference - I just don't think that private transport should be subsidised by the public sector. The car is after all supposed to be about the rugged individual and the free market, isn't it? So why should cars be subsidised by the taxpayer?

IMO that money would be better spend upgrading local transport links to get people out of cars without them having to be crammed onto horrible uncomfortable buses and overpriced trains. Rail, light rail, bicycling and scootering is the way forward for transportation really, not more of the same energy-intensive souped-up American style consumerism that got us into this mess in the first place. But like I say that's really a philosophical difference that I have with pretty much everyone anyway. :lol: Most people like their cars and will vote to keep them every time no matter what the cost, that's the way it goes. :roll:
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby andylaurence » Thu Mar 11, 2010 9:33 am

badnewswade wrote:Yes, with me it's more of a philosophical difference - I just don't think that private transport should be subsidised by the public sector. The car is after all supposed to be about the rugged individual and the free market, isn't it? So why should cars be subsidised by the taxpayer?

IMO that money would be better spend upgrading local transport links to get people out of cars without them having to be crammed onto horrible uncomfortable buses and overpriced trains. Rail, light rail, bicycling and scootering is the way forward for transportation really, not more of the same energy-intensive souped-up American style consumerism that got us into this mess in the first place. But like I say that's really a philosophical difference that I have with pretty much everyone anyway. :lol: Most people like their cars and will vote to keep them every time no matter what the cost, that's the way it goes. :roll:


I completely disagree. £260m doesn't go far in creating rail links. At £5k per car, it gets another 46000 cars on the road and also a suite of charging points. If rail is the answer, how do you propose people who work in the next town get to work and back? Very few of those people will have a single rail route that goes from home to work. For me, it's two changes. The time it takes to change from one to another (the standing still part) is longer than the time it takes me to drive 42 miles to work. Add in the travel time on that public transport and it's more than twice the travelling time. Then there's the small matter of double the cost, too. By driving, I save myself a good dollop of cash and 12% of my waking life.
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby badnewswade » Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:58 am

Like I say, it's more of a difference in philosophy, I don't really expect others to share it as the car is just too damn popular.

I do think that £260 million could install a brilliant public transport system in at least one British city. Car driving is all about the free market, they are for the rugged lone individual, so car drivers should never be bailed out by the government. I suppose I'm kind of right wing on that issue - unless you're severely disabled or something, it just isn't the State's job to help you buy a new car.

People who work in a different town to the one they live in could always live closer to where they work if it's inconvenient. Cars have created this terrible elongated suburbia, what one critic calls a "geography of nowhere" that is neither city nor country. Still, if they want to pay for the privelige of driving that's their business, however I object to paying for other people's cars. I won't get any benefit from that, certainly not like I would if the money was spent on public transport in my area - even the much-hyped charging infrastructure seems to be aimed more at getting people charged up at their work and most of the public charging points I've heard of involve going through a vast and expensive beurocratic procedure before you can actually use one.

Properly done, public transport can be quicker and cheaper than cars - the Czechs are said to have really good public transport for example, and they're not exactly a rich country.

But I don't expect my pro-public transport position to be popular. I just think it's bloody outrageous that I have to subsidise private individuals rather than the common good.
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andylaurence
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby andylaurence » Mon Mar 15, 2010 10:13 am

badnewswade wrote:I do think that £260 million could install a brilliant public transport system in at least one British city.

One bus route with a dedicated lane costs £48m. The same link says rail costs £23m per km. We'd get 10km of rail for the cost of this subsidy.

badnewswade wrote:Properly done, public transport can be quicker and cheaper than cars - the Czechs are said to have really good public transport for example, and they're not exactly a rich country.

Prague's pretty good - subway, buses and trams. It's feasible to be in the centre without a car, at least. It's often a similar time to walk from place to place, but that'll always be the case right in the centre. I caught a bus in Bristol from the suburbs into the centre and it took slightly longer than walking. These days, I just drive.
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby badnewswade » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:42 pm

Tell me about it - Bristol's a prime candidate for light rail if ever I saw one. We had a brilliant, city-wide tram system before WW2- the first electric trams in the UK according to wikipediia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Tramways

A combination of car culture, Bristol's emerging bus obsession (what is it with that?) and the Lufwaffe utterly destroyed the trams, their power station and the very rails they rode on. So now all Bristol's planners can come up with is bendy-buses. Gaaah!

The trouble with my whole public transport theory is that so much of the infrastructure has been destroyed in favour of the car that it's unclear whether it's ever coming back. Look at Beeching's trashing of the railways - there's a political concensus around people old enough to have experienced our old rail network (and who knew how much it had cost to build in human lives) that it was an unforgivable crime to dismantle it, not least because so many of those lines are irreplacable.
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Re: Details for next years UK electric car subsidies announced

Postby dargles » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:06 pm

What I find fascinating about the whole Beeching thing is that so many miles of track have subsequently been reopened as "heritage railways" and are now doing very nicely... :?

But getting back on topic:
Let's see if the car companies can actually produce a vehicle that matches the criteria of the subsidies :|

ChrisB

- the Nissan Leaf? I sort of get the idea that maybe the criteria might, just might, have been produced after a conversation between our Gordon and the Nissan executives... :? Especially since the Leaf isn't planned for sale in the UK until early 2011...

The Reva NXR is just about usable for me - 134km/day - but I doubt it'd do 134km in the rain, with the lights on at its top speed of 64mph on the motorway. So we're nearly there. I can't believe all these incentives for electric cars and nothing to buy.

Andy

- again, the Nissan Leaf? They're claiming 85mph and 160km range. They were being very coy about price today, but the Times on 4th April was claiming £23K. They're also claiming that they will get the range up to 200 *miles* (not km) within 5 years.

Regards, David


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