Need an towing A frame.

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EV_dub
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Need an towing A frame.

Postby EV_dub » Thu May 05, 2011 10:56 am

Is anyone out there able to lend/hire me an A frame??

Its the Alternative energy racing at Santa Pod next weeked. Need to transport the Golf electric!!

I have a Van to do the towing!
1993 Veedub Golf, 156v, 1200A, 150ah's

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ChrisB
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby ChrisB » Thu May 05, 2011 10:28 pm

Watch out as I'm pretty sure the regular old A-Frames arnt legal any longer as the towed vehicle isnt braked. Your unbraked towing weight will be considerabley less than a vehicle I suspect. You might get away with one for a short recovery but I wouldnt risk it for a long trip.
You can use a "Spec" (lifts the front wheels) as these are braked, or a full blown trailer.
Also be aware of your towing weights and vehicle your using for towing as I've been hearing all kinds of rumblings about the police pulling towing outfits and issuing 7day'ers to prove that your vehicle is suitable for the item your towing.

ChrisB
I reject reality and substitute my own !!!!!!

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EV_dub
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby EV_dub » Fri May 06, 2011 7:21 pm

If you passed your driving test after 1 January 1997 and have an ordinary Category B licence, you can drive the following:

•a trailer over 750 kilograms maximum gross weight as long as it is no more than the unladen or 'kerb' weight of the towing vehicle (up to 3,500 kilograms in total)

Towing a car using an A-frame or dolly
If you attach an A-frame to a car in order to tow it with a larger vehicle, the car plus A-frame counts as a trailer.

my van= 2100kg + golf 1400kg= 3400kg

I will look into the unbraked issue, I thought it was ok as long as the towed vehicle is no more than 2/3rds weight of unladen towing vehicle.
1993 Veedub Golf, 156v, 1200A, 150ah's

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Night Train
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby Night Train » Sun May 08, 2011 9:08 pm

Any towed trailer over 750kg, or the maximum allowable weight based on manufacturers ratings, or half the towing vehicle's kerb weight, whichever is the lowest, must have over run brakes up to a maximum trailer weight of 3500kg. Over that weight powered brakes would be used.
The maximum weight of the trailer must not exceed the maximum weight allowable by the vehicle's manufacturer specifications.

Bascally, if you want to tow any car with a A frame it must have over run brakes unless it is less then 750kg or the maximum weight your towing vehicle is allowed to tow unbraked if less then 750kg. Even if your towing vehicle was a Scammell Contractor with 250 ton capacity this would still apply and your towed car would need over run brakes.

http://www.ntta.co.uk/

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EV_dub
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby EV_dub » Mon May 09, 2011 5:50 pm

Thanks for your input.

Yea looks like a frame with an overrun brake is the only way.

Dosen't make sense to me. If my van is designed to carry a total load of 3500kg, then why can't
I have a Train weight of 3500kg. ah well..

The car will actualy fit inside the van, only it won't quite fit through the rear doors!!! :?

Sadly It looks like this weekend isn't going to happen. Hiring a trailer/truck and the cost of fuel is going to make it all a little too expensive. :(
1993 Veedub Golf, 156v, 1200A, 150ah's

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Night Train
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby Night Train » Mon May 09, 2011 10:51 pm

EV_dub wrote:Dosen't make sense to me. If my van is designed to carry a total load of 3500kg, then why can't
I have a Train weight of 3500kg. ah well..

If you could get your car into the van then your van will be able to brake more effectively as there is more weight over the tyres. If the weight was on a free wheeling trailer instead then the brakes on the van would be less effective and more liable to skid the tyres as the wheels lock up. Also the unbraked trailer could easily push the rear of the van sideways if it was braking on a curved road.

The train weight is a different issue.
The van loaded to 3500kg will have sufficient tractive effort to climb a gradient (I forget what it is but it is steep) but if it was towing a trailer to a train weight of 3500kg there would be less weight over the driving wheels and so it would have reduced tractive effort and will not be able to climb the same gradient. It is based on the ability to restart once stopped.

This is why Land Rovers have a towing capacity of 4500kg and a gross train weight of 7500kg, they are able to restart on a steep gradient using low range gears and four wheel drive.
My car, on the other hand, has a trailer weight of only 1400kg and it struggles to start that on the wet camber of a road junction due to front drive only.
I experienced this today with a trailer weight of only 1000kg. In the sudden rain and slippery roads I was wheel spinning just to move off driving over the Pennines. Made for interesting driving trying not to have to stop facing up hill. :D

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EV_dub
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby EV_dub » Tue May 10, 2011 8:42 am

Night Train wrote:
EV_dub wrote:The train weight is a different issue.
The van loaded to 3500kg will have sufficient tractive effort to climb a gradient (I forget what it is but it is steep) but if it was towing a trailer to a train weight of 3500kg there would be less weight over the driving wheels and so it would have reduced tractive effort and will not be able to climb the same gradient. It is based on the ability to restart once stopped.

This is why Land Rovers have a towing capacity of 4500kg and a gross train weight of 7500kg, they are able to restart on a steep gradient using low range gears and four wheel drive.
My car, on the other hand, has a trailer weight of only 1400kg and it struggles to start that on the wet camber of a road junction due to front drive only.
I experienced this today with a trailer weight of only 1000kg. In the sudden rain and slippery roads I was wheel spinning just to move off driving over the Pennines. Made for interesting driving trying not to have to stop facing up hill. :D


Sounds like you had a lot weight towards the front of your trailer, lifting the weight of the front driving wheels.
I used to experience this with my motorcycle rack attached on my front wheel drive car.
Heavier trailers are definetly suited to rear wheel drive towers.

I just checked the towing capacity of my iveco: 2800kg so a total train weight of 3500kg + 2800kg= 6300kg of drivable load but these figures are given for a braked trailer, no figures for unbraked!


On the subject of towing, I was quite impressed to read "Red beastie" the electric pickup towed the heavy metal garden tractor and baby blue for a total train weight of 10,000lbs. According to Ev-album: 50miles at freeway speeds! 120v with a 9" motor!

http://www.evalbum.com/037
1993 Veedub Golf, 156v, 1200A, 150ah's

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Night Train
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby Night Train » Tue May 10, 2011 9:50 pm

EV_dub wrote:Sounds like you had a lot weight towards the front of your trailer, lifting the weight of the front driving wheels.
I used to experience this with my motorcycle rack attached on my front wheel drive car.
Heavier trailers are definetly suited to rear wheel drive towers.

I just checked the towing capacity of my iveco: 2800kg so a total train weight of 3500kg + 2800kg= 6300kg of drivable load but these figures are given for a braked trailer, no figures for unbraked!


On the subject of towing, I was quite impressed to read "Red beastie" the electric pickup towed the heavy metal garden tractor and baby blue for a total train weight of 10,000lbs. According to Ev-album: 50miles at freeway speeds! 120v with a 9" motor!

http://www.evalbum.com/037

Weight was ok but when the car was facing upslope on the road camber the transfer of weight to the back was enough to make it a pain. Unfortunately they didn't make my car in rear drive or 4x4 when I bought it.

Your Iveco should be good for the full 750kg unbraked as that is significantly less then the kerb weight.

Electric towing sounds a real challenge. I am hoping that my EV trike will be able to tow a trailer, it would be a good way to extend range, either with a generator or preferably with additional batteries.

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ChrisB
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Re: Need an towing A frame.

Postby ChrisB » Wed May 11, 2011 3:12 pm

EV_dub wrote:
Night Train wrote:
EV_dub wrote:The train weight is a different issue.
The van loaded to 3500kg will have sufficient tractive effort to climb a gradient (I forget what it is but it is steep) but if it was towing a trailer to a train weight of 3500kg there would be less weight over the driving wheels and so it would have reduced tractive effort and will not be able to climb the same gradient. It is based on the ability to restart once stopped.

This is why Land Rovers have a towing capacity of 4500kg and a gross train weight of 7500kg, they are able to restart on a steep gradient using low range gears and four wheel drive.
My car, on the other hand, has a trailer weight of only 1400kg and it struggles to start that on the wet camber of a road junction due to front drive only.
I experienced this today with a trailer weight of only 1000kg. In the sudden rain and slippery roads I was wheel spinning just to move off driving over the Pennines. Made for interesting driving trying not to have to stop facing up hill. :D


Sounds like you had a lot weight towards the front of your trailer, lifting the weight of the front driving wheels.
I used to experience this with my motorcycle rack attached on my front wheel drive car.
Heavier trailers are definetly suited to rear wheel drive towers.

I just checked the towing capacity of my iveco: 2800kg so a total train weight of 3500kg + 2800kg= 6300kg of drivable load but these figures are given for a braked trailer, no figures for unbraked!


On the subject of towing, I was quite impressed to read "Red beastie" the electric pickup towed the heavy metal garden tractor and baby blue for a total train weight of 10,000lbs. According to Ev-album: 50miles at freeway speeds! 120v with a 9" motor!

http://www.evalbum.com/037


I have in the past towed my Fiesta conversion on an un-braked A-Frame with "interesting" results, tow vehicle was an astra estate and I now understand the reasonings for only allowing 750kg un-braked.

One major issue under braking was the fact the nose drops on the towing vehicle and this then raised the rear of the tow bar up slightly, the towed vehicled would then start to push the rear of the car up even more, the harder you braked the worse it got and on one occasion while braking and going round a "slight" corner the whole lot almost jack knifed as the towed vehicle decided it was going to go straight on almost lifting the rear wheels of the Astra off the ground as it went :shock:

Needless to say the A-Frame was only used afterwards for short recovery.

I tried to change the height of the tow bar with a drop plate, which did improve things but doing some tests on a private bit of ground it still would try and shove the tow vehicle sideways if you braked hard and cornered even in slightest way, adding weight into the rear of the astra improved things again but still under hard braking it would get away from you.

So from experience I can see why they limit the weight on unbraked stuff.

ChrisB
I reject reality and substitute my own !!!!!!


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