Lithium Ion City El - What a difference!

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aminorjourney
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Lithium Ion City El - What a difference!

Postby aminorjourney » Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:57 pm

Hi folks,

Continuing on the thread of my Lithium Ion Powered city El I thought I'd also start a topic in the battery section talking of my experiences.

My range at the moment seems to be somewhere between 30 miles (if I drive hard, stopping lots and accelerating lots in City traffic) and 50 miles.

I took the City El out for a road trip this morning to Severn beach. The route is here. It was a total of 24.8 miles and my car recorded about half capacity when I got back.

I've configured the BMS system to charge the 12 100AH Thundersky cells to 4.2 V and to assume that when the batteries are unable to provide >70 Amps that they are empty. This figure is nice and high because most of my driving is done in a busy, hilly City. I could set it lower, but I'd hold up traffic and probably not do the cells any good in the progress.

Based on these settings my batteries are about equivalent to 80 AH of useful charge. I'm currently recharging after my trip out this morning and hopefully in three hours or so I'll have a WHr/ Mile reading for you all :)

I have been blown away at what a difference the Thundersky cells have made. The LionEl now accelerates with other traffic at lights in busy traffic and is quite happy to sustain 40 mph when asked to. It's also equally happy to provide a low current when cruising at 30mph and seems to climb hills much more happily too. In fact, I climbed a huge hill this morning in it which I'd previously gone down (with the brakes on because it was that steep!) I reached the top without even really acknowledging the fact I'd climbed it!

It does begger the question why more people don't go Lithium. If it's transformed a tiny city commuter vehicle into something capable of traveling along longer distances I don't know what it'd do to a more powerful vehicle!

Nikki.
Last edited by aminorjourney on Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield

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anachrocomputer
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Postby anachrocomputer » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:04 pm

I'm impressed with those results! Really sounds like a worthwhile upgrade, especially (as you say) in a hilly place like this. I have a spare Palm Pilot that we can try out as a bigger display, if you want.

BTW, looks like your map link isn't working.
1994 Suzuki Cappuccino
1992 Mini-El electric bubblecar

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aminorjourney
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Postby aminorjourney » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:06 pm

I've fixed it now, John :)

Now, if I can just get Google to let me have the API for their Plugin hybrid pages ;)
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Postby aminorjourney » Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:38 pm

Well, unless my maths is wrong the energy meter I have stated a full recharge took 2.5KWH.

Dividing the 2,500 WH by the mileage gave me a reading of 100.8 Wh/Mile.

Is that good?
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Postby ChrisB » Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:25 am

Yeah I would think thats about right the blingo is generally double that at least and that weighs a darn site more :oops:

As for going up to Li-ions I think its the cost that puts people off :evil: you got yours I presume at a bit of a discount how much would it cost for band new ones ??

I'd love to give the blingo the Li-ion Treatment but suspect it would start running into about 10k in costs and TBH it then makes the cheap motoring that I've got now a bit of a joke :lol:

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Postby MalcolmB » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:30 am

My 130 kg motorcycle uses around 75 Wh/mile – measured onboard, not at the charger – so 100 Wh/mile sounds good to me considering you've got an extra wheel and weather protection. Would love to swap my lead acid for lithium. I reckon I could lose around 15 kg and at least double my range to a very useful 30–40 miles. But like Chris says, it's the cost that puts me off right now. I'd also like to hang on until lithium batteries become available that don't require the added complexity of a BMS.
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Postby aminorjourney » Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:34 am

Malcolm,

For what it's worth I actually used the BMS from reap because I wanted computer integration. You don't actually have to use anything as complex. the Cedric Lynch cell protectors don't use any complex bits other than a cell protector mounted on the top of each cell.

Out of interest, what sort of prices would people want to pay for Lithium? Let's talk realistic prices here, not fantasy ones!

What sort of price would be acceptable per AH per cell?
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Postby MalcolmB » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:48 am

the Cedric Lynch cell protectors don't use any complex bits other than a cell protector mounted on the top of each cell


That's good news Nikki. So do they just provide a low-voltage cut-off?

Regarding price, my pain threshold is about £1/Ah, which would mean £1000 for a 50Ah/60V pack, but I'd want cells that could deliver 250A for short bursts.

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Postby aminorjourney » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:56 am

Reap sell 100AH cells brand new for £1.20/hr/cell. I got my cells cheaper as they were older ones (they were three year old unusued cells)


I don't think the standard Thundersky batteries would have a problem with 250A - of course you don't want to do that all the time, but that's true of pretty much any chemistry.

I think Cedric's protectors actually bypass the current when the cell voltage has reached 4.25 V per cell. I don't know anything really about them though - but they're about £12 a cell if I remember correctly....
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Cedric's Lithium-Ion Cell Protectors

Postby retepsnikrep » Fri Jul 20, 2007 5:41 am

From Cedric's site at

http://agnimotors.com/home/index.php?op ... &Itemid=39

I am sure he won't mind me posting it.

[quote]

Lithium-ion Cell Charge and Discharge Controller

Lithium-ion cell charge and discharge controller to fit Thunder Sky 50 AH, 100 AH and 200 AH cells. (May also be used with other lithium-ion cells if suitable connecting wires are bolted or soldered to the circuit board). One controller is needed for each cell in the battery.
Principle of operation: the device draws a current of about 100 micro-amps from the cell and passes it through a 1.25V precision reference diode. This gives a reference of 1.25 volts against which other voltages can be compared. A very small current is also passed through a resistor and a potentiometer in series. Their values are such that the voltage of the junction between them will be 1.25V in relation to the cell negative terminal when the cell voltage is about 2.95V (plus or minus about 0.15V), which is the lowest voltage at which the cell should be discharged.
The trimmer potentiometer is adjusted so that the voltage between its wiper and the cell’s negative terminal will be 1.25V when the cell voltage is 4.25V, the highest voltage to which it should be charged. (With the aid of an accurate voltmeter and a laboratory D.C. power supply this voltage can be adjusted precisely. Warning: The fact that a voltmeter has a digital display with two digits after the decimal point does not necessarily mean that it is accurate. Some such meters are wrong by 10 per cent. It is the user’s responsibility to ensure the accuracy of equipment used in making any re-adjustment).

There is a dual operational amplifier, which compares the voltage taken from the resistor and trimmer potentiometer with the 1.25V reference. When the cell reaches 4.2V the amplifier starts to turn on a transistor, which passes current through a 15-ohm resistor, thereby loading that cell by up to about 250 milliamps. When the voltage across this resistor reaches about 3V the current starts to flow also through a light-emitting diode and the input of an opto-isolator. The output of this opto-isolator must be connected in parallel with the outputs on the devices on all the other cells, and also to the battery charger or to a device which can control its charging current in such a way that the charging voltage is reduced if any of the opto-isolator outputs are conducting. If the vehicle has regenerative braking, the opto-isolator outputs must also be connected to the motor controller so that if any of them are conducting the brake current will be reduced (to zero if necessary, for example if the vehicle is driven down a hill with fully charged battery). In this way the cell controllers prevent any cell from being overcharged, and they also work towards equalising the state of charge of all the cells during the later part of a charge.
When the voltage of a cell falls to 2.95V, the amplifier turns on another transistor, which passes current through a second opto-isolator. These under-voltage opto-isolators must also have their outputs in parallel, and they must be connected to the motor controller in such a way that if any of them are conducting they reduce the current demand, to zero if necessary (when the battery is flat). This arrangement does not do anything to equalise cell voltages during discharge, but it ensures that during discharge the weakest cell of the battery cannot be taken below about 2.95V. Lithium-ion cells have a high internal resistance at low temperatures, so in cold weather the under-voltage protection is likely to be limiting power even when the battery is nearly fully charged. The performance may improve during discharge as the battery warms up. The battery’s resistance at a given temperature increases as it is discharged, so if it is allowed to cool to freezing temperatures when it is not fully charged its performance will be very poor until it is charged and/or warmed up. Also it will take a long time to charge fully at low temperatures.

The battery should be assembled and installed so that it is likely that all the cells will be at about the same temperature. It is advisable to make provision for thermal insulation, but with ventilation possible in hot weather. Do not install the battery so that some cells are inside a closed compartment and others in a draught or exposed to spray from the wheels! If you do, the performance of the entire battery will be limited to that of the coldest cell. The cell charge/discharge controllers must be completely protected from water, particularly spray (which could have salt in it),otherwise they could be damaged and/or fail to control the voltage correctly. If there is a tendency for condensation to form on them they should be sprayed with water repellent (Duck Oil, WD-40 or similar).

Use with a Zivan Electronic Battery Charger

(K series or NG series).

(The charger has to be modified in a way that will invalidate its guarantee)
The charger must have the charging curve “IUâ€Â


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