Why buy an EV over a hybrid?

Do you own or use a EV. Then this is a good place to discuss things.
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dargles
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Postby dargles » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:21 pm

Hi, Folks.
I'm not (yet... ? :wink: ) an EV owner, so I don't know if my thoughts count, but that's never really stopped me in the past... Basically, my intention is to aim for an EV as a next purchase, with the following thinking in mind.

Firstly, why an EV? Lots of contributory reasons here; cheap recharges, which I know are offset by the potential high cost of battery replacement, for example. I was brought up in London in the 50s enjoying rides on electric trolley buses - and they were smart :D . Also, as a Londoner, I subscribe to the idea that, even if the power eventually comes from some environmentally-destructive power source, at least we've got some of the smog out of the towns (and yes, I *did* experience the smogs of the 50s, and no, they were not nice). So basically, when all's said and done, it's got to be a step in the right direction, and a nice vehicle to drive at the same time.

Next, why not a hybrid? I know one or two Prius owners, and the general feedback that I've picked up on is that they don't really seem to work in green terms - the general feeling is that a "Blue Motion" Polo is going to be significantly more economical, for example. I'd almost rather go for a diesel and run it on bio diesel (yes, I know that's controversial as well...).

Another issue which is likely to get me going on an EV arises out of a comment Kelvin made recently - the idea that maybe there's sense in thinking about multiple vehicles. We have seen big changes in society over the last 60 years. As a son of a London taxi driver, we were one of the few houses in our street that had a vehicle in the early 50s. When we bought our first car in 1960, we were one of the first houses to have two vehicles. Looking down our street today, most houses have multiple vehicles - and we now routinely think about having different vehicles for different uses. So if 80% of my daily driving is in town, not exceeding 30mph (honest :wink: !) and not going more than 20 miles or so, an EV is clearly the best option for the majority of my driving. When I need to visit my daughter in Oxford for the day, I can use an ICE-powered job.

To me, the biggest problem is that, for my 80% usage, I guess a Reva G-Wizz would do the job just fine. Or a Wilson Electric Coupe from 1935, which has pretty similar performance. Hey guys - ICE cars are unrecognisable alongside their 1935 equivalents - yet EV development has hardly moved until recently! Still, there are some really interesting developments happening at the moment, and I'm looking forward to seeing what will arrive in the next 2 or 3 years.

OK, so I know there's lots that's controversial here, and worse still, I'm currently a dreamer, not a doer! But this is where my thinking has got to, and I do want to go to an EV soon, when I can. Oh... and when I've got my wife on board with the idea as well, of course... But maybe this might be helpful in terms of getting an insight into the mind of a not-yet EV-er?

Regards, David
PS: Oh, BTW, there's another little issue. Ok, there's the problem of power storage, but electric drive is soooo simple. And compared to that, you're looking at reciprocating lumps of iron with cooling problems and that need fuel monitored and fed in in just the right amounts, and sparks generated and delivered at just the right moment, and...and... - how did we ever get to the point where we thought this was a good idea and invested zillions in research and development of the idea...???? And left electric drive on back burner... :roll:

whydelilah
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Postby whydelilah » Fri Nov 27, 2009 3:59 pm

SaintMaryUK wrote:I'm a purist - EVs all the way I reckon :D

I'd love to hear more about your masters, and what exactly you are researching?

Also, whereabouts are you based?

Mary.


Sorry Mary, I've not been on here for a while.

I'm based in London and doing my MA with the Open University. I'm looking at whether climate change policies can address wider environmental issues than climate change, using personal road transport as a case study. Part of it is to look at why people buy certain types of cars, EVs included.

Although EVs still use scarce resources in production and can only really be 'green' if renewable energy is used for the electricity generation; they cut out noise pollution and do not contribute to ground level ozone and other nasties involved in combustion. Thus if they are encouraged as part of a climate change focus they have wider environmental benefits.

It's been a bit of an eye opener to be honest. There is a body of literature that suggests 'green consumerism' involves buying things that are less damaging to the environment but which still nevertheless have an impact. The counter to that is that we need a consumer society (money makes the world go round) and any shade of green is better than no green at all. What is particularly interesting from the members of this forum is that the stronger draw to EVs is the technology, not the green credentials.

This provides an interesting policy focus and suggests if you wanted to encourage EV use you should appeal to the inner gadget geek in everyone, rather than the inner environmentalist.

Not sure if anyone finds that interesting!?

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dargles
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Postby dargles » Fri Dec 04, 2009 11:19 pm

Hi, WhyDelila.
I'm interested in what you're saying here, and would be fascinated to know more:
...they cut out noise pollution and do not contribute to ground level ozone...

Are you sure about that? The London underground produces large volumes of ozone as far as I'm aware; and it was always the same smell when I used to race my Scalextric set for hours on end, for example. So I tended to assume that this is also the case with EVs. Is this not true? And even if it is, is this a problem?
What is particularly interesting from the members of this forum is that the stronger draw to EVs is the technology, not the green credentials

Does that not reflect a realism in approach? I get the impression that most folk reckon that there are no simple answers, so (a) we want a move in the right direction, and (b) if we want to overcome a huge resistance to EVs in the general population ("yah boo milk float"...), it requires a focus on "must have" attributes. Hence Tesla with it's "let's make a Lotus-beater first, then worry about the family car afterwards" approach.

But maybe I'm quite wrong in this?
Regards, David

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Jeremy
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Postby Jeremy » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:57 am

The ozone you can smell from the London Underground comes from sparking, which ionises the air around the spark. The vast majority of this comes from the shoes sparking on the conductor rail, although a tiny amount does come from the motor commutators.

For an EV that uses a brushless motor, there wouldn't be any ozone created. Even from one that uses a conventional brush motor I suspect that the ozone emissions are tiny.

Another factor to consider is the life of ozone in the atmosphere at ground level. It's pretty reactive and tends not to persist for long, around half an hour or so would be typical.

Jeremy

john
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OZONE

Postby john » Sat Dec 05, 2009 12:05 pm

the ozone you can smell on the underground is made mainley by ozone
machines at the stations to kill airbourne bacteria.
i read this many yea
rs ago in a book about the design of the network
john crayton

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Jeremy
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Postby Jeremy » Sat Dec 05, 2009 8:06 pm

This may have been the case a 100 years or so ago, but not today. We now know that ozone is pretty toxic at even modest concentrations (which may explain why we can smell it at just 0.01 parts per million), so the Underground wouldn't get away with adding any more ozone, over and above that caused by the sparking on the conductor rail.

Jeremy

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EV versus Hybrid.

Postby chatwindows » Fri Jan 01, 2010 1:32 pm

Hello again.
I fully endorse Chris Bs reply. My Blingo does everything I ask of it "& that is the crunch." If you want to go 70 mph plus for hundreds of miles, then of course the EV is not for you. However, as a retired person who does not have the daily commute, (which my Blingo would have done for me anyway) & most of my travelling is local, I just love it. I enjoy being different & have long ago got over the milk float jokes. I find that I don't often use the radio even. Just gliding along & smiling as the people pass me staring in disbelief gives me a kick. I have a sign in the back window stating "electric vehicle" due to the regenerative braking delay with the stop lights. So far in nearly 8,000 miles I have spent just over £200. 00. on electricity. (off peak of course) I smile at the detractors & challenge any one of them to get 200+ mpg out of their ICE powered vehicles. We must all surely be aware, that if the same amount of development as well as two world wars had been devoted to EVs, we would be doing 70mph plus for two hundred miles to a charge, as well as charging up at the filling stations in twenty minutes. Our day will come. It has to! Chatwindows.

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ChrisB
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Re: EV versus Hybrid.

Postby ChrisB » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:12 am

chatwindows wrote:.......... Our day will come. It has to! Chatwindows.


My one concern with our day coming is the fact so will the tax and the charges :cry:

Once EV's become main stream we can kiss the free road tax good bye and the fact we can charge our vehicles and then use this power without having to pay any excise duty on this fuel we are using "on the road"

We're very lucky at the moment, its like being able to run a oil burner on red diesel 8)

Mark my words it will happen :cry: and once it does I'll be looking for another form of cheap transport :wink:

ChrisB
I reject reality and substitute my own !!!!!!

boelle
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Re: EV versus Hybrid.

Postby boelle » Sat Jan 09, 2010 9:02 am

ChrisB wrote:Once EV's become main stream we can kiss the free road tax good bye


Well that is about to be the case in Denamrk in about 2 years... Ev's has been free of any kind of fee's/taxes until now... at least we dont have congestion charge etc.. but i gues that would have been nothing compared to the fee we pay to get the plates on oil burners, and i think they will use the same model for calculating the fee on EV's too, in that way everyone thinks it's fair.. in the old days it was just a 180% tax on top of the sales price... so just to make some rough math a saxo would cost approx 10000 € from new... then add a bit of shipping etc so we end up at 11000 €... then sales tax at 25% that makes it close to 14000 €... now just add 180% and you end with an figure arround 39000€.... now i can get 3 brand new peugeot 107's for that.. an oil burner i know...

but if we will be taxed at the same level as an oil burner i dont need to think much to figure what most people would do if they had the choice between an EV and a oil burner that's just the same price or maybe a bit cheeper... there have to be an econmic reason to choose an ev... and that reason has to be so big that it puts the disadvanteges in the shadow or else people will just go for the oil burners

and all goverment arround the world are shouting about we need to run cleaner cars and yet they do act so that we are forced in the opisite direction.... i know ev's has some issue's regarding to where the electricity comes from, but it's better to have the polloution at one place making it more easy to clean the smoke. but as wind and water powered generators are put more in use that issue would change, then there are the cells.. they need to be handled correctly... of course they are a hazard if they are just thrown at the nearest roadside and left to rot in the nature..

so personaly i would think more than twice if i had to choose between an ev and a hybrid... to make things more easy for me a hybrid is taxed the same way as a oilburner.. and i for sure do have to take a look in my pocket every time i spend money

and if they will start to tax the ev's i'm sure not going to spend extra just to have an ev
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ChrisB
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Postby ChrisB » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:01 pm

Back to the horse and cart it is then :lol:

ChrisB
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